How to Tell if Your Lath & Plaster Ceiling Needs to Come Down

period charm

Period Charm….how much can you take away?

It’s a difficult decision isn’t it? We all love the period charm of an older house but what to do when repairing something as notorious as a lath and plaster ceiling? It can be difficult to find that point where you need to stop repairing a ceiling because removing the ceiling is the cheaper option.

I always shed a tear when an original old lath and plaster ceiling comes down, as I can’t shake the feeling that the house will lose a little of its character.

But times change and our expectations with them, for example, modern light fittings simply do not sit well in lath and plaster. At least not without a lot of work or compromise. Cost is also a big factor, during major renovations ripping out a ceiling and plasterboarding it is not that big a deal cost wise, especially in comparison to hiring in lime and plaster specialists to repair the ceilings. Whereas any competent DIY enthusiast or local builder can replace lath and plaster with plasterboard relatively cheaply.

Since you are here though, you’ve probably got a sagging ceiling or one that is badly cracked and falling off the laths.

Caveats first though OK. This ‘how to’ explains how to evaluate whether to repair and/or to take down a lath and plaster ceiling. Plaster ceilings in some listed houses may need to be retained and repaired rather than removed (check first!).

OK, enough blurb, lets take a look at your plasterwork

Evaluating whether to repair or remove your lath and plaster ceilings

Stand underneath one corner of your ceiling on a suitable ladder and with your head almost touching the ceiling look across the surface, do a 90 degree sweep looking for any unevenness, sagging sections, cracks etc. Try again from the opposing corners. Your ceiling may look flat from the floor, but once you get up there and have a closer look, you will get a much better idea of its condition.

Lath and plaster in 'textbook' condition

Lath and plaster in ‘textbook’ condition

A sagging ceiling does not necessarily mean that the plasterwork has broken away from the lath though. Old houses settle and the ceilings go along for the ride. So, if your ceiling is sagging or sloping, it may still be OK.

In any sagging areas where you suspect that the plaster has separated from the lath, stand underneath and gently push upwards with the palm of your hands. A little give is normal but if you feel the plaster move up and down, this means that it is not attached to the laths. Dust and debris may fall from cracks as you do this.

NOTE: Don’t go crazy here, if you push and shove a really bad ceiling hard a few times, you might end up ‘wearing’ it! Go gently 😕

lath and plaster and how it fails

Lath and plaster and how it usually fails

When a ceiling fails completely the lime mortar or plasterwork separates from the laths and drops down. Effectively this means that the plasterwork is hanging underneath the laths, virtually unsupported. Sometimes it is only the horse hair strands in the mortar that is holding up the plasterwork! This rarely happens over the entire area though. Some areas may be perfectly fine.

If left in this perilous state, chunks of plasterwork will eventually start to crack and even drop away, either in small pieces or in large sheets if there is a water leak or even someone jumping on the floor above etc.

Keep or start over?

It becomes a question of percentages. Once more than a third of a ceiling has failed, replacement may be a cheaper option than repairs. Check the entire ceiling as described above and mark any areas that you think have separated with big pencil circles. From the floor try to judge how much of the ceiling has failed from your marks. More than a third to a half?

Because repairing a lath and plaster ceiling like this can be expensive, or beyond your ability as a DIY enthusiast, you might say enough is enough and sadly, “I want to take the ceiling down” and start over.

Need More Information or Help?

Urban legend has it that you only need to read six books on a subject to be classed as an ‘expert’. So, here are some books I found interesting which will be useful to get you started! Or drop me a comment and ask a question.

All available from amazon.co.uk, (or here at amazon.com for the rest of the world), just follow the links to have a peek!

Old House Handbook:

A Practical Guide to Care and Repair, by Roger Hunt and Marianne Suhr. Hardback.

Don’t be deceived, this book may be at home on the coffee table, but it packs a lot of really useful information into its pages. Passed and approved by my favorite ‘Institute’, the guys at SPAB, the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings.

The book teaches you to work with your house, not fight it. Repair not restore or renovate. If you are into minimalism, white flat surfaces and recessed downlights, this book may be a shock for you, as it educates us to live with a buildings character, not destroy it.


book about the maintenance of historic buildings

maintenance of historic buildings

Maintenance of Historic Buildings 

A Practical Handbook, by Jurgen Klemisch.

A practical, hands-on guide to the maintenance of your older house. Based on many years of experience, this book teaches you the current best practices related to maintenance and is presented using a straightforward logical format.

In two sections the book deals with maintenance for use by owners and how to conduct condition surveys. The book makes extensive use of helpful checklists, work cards detailing routine cleaning, deep cleaning, inspection, servicing and redecoration; and even spreadsheets to help plan your maintenance.

Following the books recommendations would also (over time) build a useful record about your house, which will be helpful when deciding the timing of future repairs and allow you to assess costs accurately.


damp houses a guide to the causes and treatment of dampness

A damp house is a dying house……

The Damp House:

A Guide to the Causes and Treatment of Dampness, by Jonathan Hetreed. Hardback.

I thought that I would include this book because as the owner of an older property you will soon come to learn that water or damp is the mortal enemy of your house!

Managing the moisture and water, on, in and around your home is vital in the battle to preserve and protect it.

From the patio to the ridge, water is trying to get into your house and cause damage! Read Jonathan’s insights and learn how to keep it at bay.


haynes Victorian house book image

The Victorian House manual from Haynes

The Victorian House Manual By Haynes

A no nonsense book that even Conservation Officers like and use! This book covers some of the most common problems found in houses built in this era, along with some of the more common misconceptions about some of the repairs commonly touted as being able to “cure all ills”.

As you would expect from Haynes these books have great photos and easy to understand and follow instructions. A hard to beat primer for anyone owning or thinking of buying a Victorian (or Edwardian for that matter) house.


A step by step guide to using natural finishes in your old house

Guide to using natural finishes

Using Natural Finishes:

Lime and Clay Based Plasters, Renders and Paints – A Step-by-step Guide By Adam Weismann

Adam Weismann’s book is more specialized than those above and would suit the hard core enthusiast who wants to have a go at repairing their old walls and ceilings themselves.

Kevin McCloud from Grand Designs comments that it is “A splendid book. A real addition to what’s out there and very complementary to the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings’ new technical manual on Old Building Repairs”.

Disclaimer: The next three books are my own… forgive the plug 🙂


12 Ways to Fix Lath and Plaster Ceilings:

Complete Do-it-Yourself Guide for Homeowners, by Ian Anderson 

Love them or hate them, I’ll show you what you can do with yours, based on over 30 years of on-site experience. I’ll show you how to evaluate the condition of your ceilings and quickly run through the options you have to repair and keep them.

Alternatively (and sadly); if needs must, I’ll show you how to safely remove them and install new ceilings, either with like for like traditional materials or more commonly, with modern drywall materials.

This  complete homeowners guide includes:

  • How to inspect and evaluate your lath and plaster ceiling.
  • 7 ways to repair and keep your lath and plaster ceilings.
  • 5 ways to replace your lath and plaster ceiling.
  • Step by step guide to removing your lath and plaster ceiling.
  • Levelling up your ceiling joists.
  • Installing drywall.
  • Further online resources.

Home Maintenance Checklist

Complete DIY Guide for Homeowners: 101 Ways to Properly Look After Your Home and Save Money, by Ian Anderson

Let’s be honest here, home maintenance has a huge image problem. It’s not cool, it’s not sexy and it definitely isn’t ever going to beat the thrill of building something new and shiny, not ever… 
But guess what; you know that new and shiny thing you’re building instead of maintaining your home? Yup, it’s going to need maintaining to keep that new and shiny look you so desire. 
So relax a little, surrender to it, and since you can’t truly escape it anyway, let a little maintenance creep into your life. Your stuff will love you for it; you will love your stuff for looking so good, and oh; the planet will quite like you for it too.

So, let me talk you into doing a little home maintenance…


How to be Handy [hairy bottom not required]

Build Money Saving DIY Skills, Create a Unique Home and Properly Look After Your Stuff, by Ian Anderson

Do you want to be handy and live a more practical life?

Then this book is for you. Because it’s a different kind of DIY book, one which will take you far beyond trying to blindly follow step-by-step instructions, to where you can stop faking it, and actually make it. To actually be practical; to be handy.

Using Ian’s simple R.E.L.E.A.R.N method you’ll ‘relearn’ how you look at DIY; to see the world through ‘practical eyes’. Relearn how you observe, listen, feel, and smell everything and what it all means. Plus, you’ll know how and where to find the information you need to fill any gaps and create workable solutions for your DIY projects.

You’ll learn how to use a few simple tools to easily transform your home, using your own head, hands, and heart to create something wonderful, fix something you treasure, maintain something you want to keep forever or build something just for fun.

There’s more than 30 years of experience from a professional builder and handyman, packed into this easy to follow method which explains how handy people like Ian tackle practical tasks, (especially the new and unknown), learning ‘just enough’ to get the job done.

Once you experience the physical world like a handy person does, you’ll think like a handy person and then you’ll be able to do anything. Seriously; anything you set your mind to…

Good luck with your own DIY endeavours and work safe.

 


Endnote….

Lath and plaster carpet

lath and plaster carpet from bev hisey

Carpet inspired by lath and plaster walling

Bev Hisey was so inspired by the look and feel of the lath and plaster when renovating her home that she has dedicated a brand new carpet design to it! Click the image to see more…

Stay well

By Ian Anderson

Comments 58

  1. House built in 1927 and has what I call whipped cream plaster on walls and ceiling. Some places have an inch or more relief. Part of the ceiling has failed.. Can’t find a repair man. Thinking of diy. Will the 12 ways to fix lath and plaster book help (especially with the whip cream aspect)?

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Aggie,
      Thanks for getting in touch. Certainly the book would help you understand the composition of your ceilings and the lath and plaster work aspects: BUT unfortunately in the book I don’t go into the whipped cream you mention, as it’s not something you see in the UK, so I’ve little experience with it. The only effects we use like that are based on ‘Artex’ a powdered plaster type product which you apply with a textured roller, sponge or special combs. Usually only thin though, a 1/4″ to 1/2″ maximum in ‘height’.

      Feel free to send me some pics if you like and I’ll see if there is anything I can add. It’s such a shame there are no local guys around willing do do this kind of work…
      Thanks again, catch you later.
      Ian

  2. Hi Ian, My home is built in 1900. I’m looking at buttoning the ceiling plaster back to the lath. I’m currently using a miter bit to get pilot holes in the plaster without damaging the lath. It appear that the lath in the ceiling runs parallel to the joists (which seems weird to me) and sometimes I can feel the lath “push up” when I try to button the plaster. This results in the screw not penetrating the lath and further damaging any plaster keys. Any advice?

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Chris,
      Hmm, I don’t see how the lath can run in the same direction as the lath. Normally the only lath running the same direction is a single lath nailed on top of the lath underneath each joist. This improved the security of the lath to the joist.
      Re the lath moving upwards, yes, this will happen as they are often very thin; however I’m a bit confused by the ‘mitre bit’, isn’t this a router cutting tool? Mostly folks just use a drywall screw in the centre of the washer and then skim over the top to hide them. On bad ceilings you might need to tighten up several washers in one go to stop small ‘elephant foot’ cracking around a single screw.
      Try using a tiny pilot drill before putting in the screw, 2mm should do it. This will make the screw start real easy (but it shouldn’t really be necessary, as drywall screws are very sharp).
      Let me know more info Chris, especially about the suspected direction of the lath…
      Cheers for now
      Ian
      p.s. sorry for the delay, it’s autumn holiday here and we’ve been away…

  3. Hi Ian – we woke up to a sizeable chunk of our lounge ceiling falling on the floor! Would love to send you pics – the shape of the fallen plaster is very strange, almost as though someone has cut it out. Caused a lot of damage, just thankful no one underneath it at the time ?

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      Author

      Oh dear April! Not good news. I’d be happy to look at your pics, you can email them to me or just share them via a link to where they are stored (dropbox etc.). Email is on my contacts page, well, it’s ian at handycrowd dot com…
      Catch you later,
      Ian

  4. Hi Ian,

    We just moved into an farm house supposedly built in 1800. We have plaster walls and ceilings. All of the ceilings look pretty even and nice except one room has really wavy looking ceiling. It has sort of like bubbles in the shape of horizontal lines going all the way across the room. There is some cracking where the plaster ceiling meets wall in one corner, also some hairline cracks throughout the room. Also definitely some sagging towards the middle of exterior wall. I pushed on it a little and may have felt a tiny bit of movement, but I didn’t push too hard because I’m paranoid lol… If I were to send you some pictures, do you think you could let me know if something needs to be done? Aesthetically, I don’t mind it, I actually like all the imperfections from our house… but don’t want the ceiling to cave in on me someday! 🙂

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Marrissa,
      Sure, please do send some photos (or links to them) and I’ll take a look. I can’t promise anything though, it’s hard to replace the ‘gut’ feeling one gets when looking at and touching something! I will be away from the net until the weekend though, (restoring an old fjord side cabin deep into the woods) which I do in two-day spells to limit the travelling. But I’ll take a look at the weekend.
      Cheers for now.
      Ian

        1. Post
          Author

          Hey Marissa, the link wouldn’t let me view the pics. It just redirected back to my own WordPress post. I’m guessing I’d need permission? Otherwise you could use dropbox (or similar) and then share the link? Right, off to work I go, catch you later 🙂

          1. Post
            Author

            Thanks Marissa, that’s better!
            Interesting, I’ll be honest and say I’ve never seen a pattern quite like that before. It almost looks like a wood paneled ceiling papered over on that second shot!! The last one certainly looks like there is something going on undeneath all that paint but who really knows? Sometimes terrible looking ceilings hang in there for decades and others that look reasonable start to sag and bits start dropping down, go figure. Like I said before, you can’t beat the gut feeling you get when you’re up close and personal with it. If you can’t feel serious movement (and you’re right not to push and shove too hard!) it’s probably not going to ‘fall down’ any time soon. I’m assuming you don’t have access to the top side? Just that this is the only true way to find out what’s going on up there. If all the nibs are in place and secure you’re golden.
            Keep me in the loop as they say!
            Cheers
            Ian

          2. I know, I can’t find images of a pattern like this anywhere. Very strange and unlike any other room in the house even. I am going to take up some floor boards in the attic and see what I can see….

            Thanks again for your help, and I’m sure I’ll be checking out your book soon!

          3. Post
            Author

            My first instinct was that it wasn’t lath and plaster! Looking above it is a good idea, just remember that you’ll only see the top of the lath and plaster, if someone, for example, has overboarded the ceiling (because it was failing) with something else, you won’t know by looking at the top (obviously). It’s tempting to cut away the ceiling’s covering in an unobtrusive corner and have a proper look at the composition… I assume it feels like plaster when you rap it with your knuckles? And not like wood?
            Well, good luck during the exploration and let me know what you find 🙂
            Cheers
            Ian

  5. Hi
    We are hopefully about to embark on a renovation of an1815 grade ll listed English farmhouse/cottage. It is in relatively good order! The ceilings are lath and plaster, with at least two of the rooms sloping quite a lot. Hopefully this is due to age and movement of the building over the years and nothing to worry about but we will be getting them checked out. There is scope to convert the loft and when we met with the conservation officer he said that we do have a choice on what materials we use for the walls of the loft but lath and plaster would be preferable! The old ceiling above the main staircase and above the loft staircase are in need of repair, so much so that you can see strands of lath hanging down and broken plater pieces. My question is to the cost of using this method as we do not have an endless pot of money for the whole renovation. How can we be guided on whether we are being ripped of on price?

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Lesley,
      The only way you can be sure of getting accurate prices on renovation works is make sure that you have a good description of the work, (from an architect is preferable) and this way you can be sure that each contractor you invite into your home is quoting for the same work. If you do this verbally, each contractor will walk away with a slightly different ‘picture’ in his mind about the job and of course the more people you talk to the more you’ll learn about the work involved and this will subtly alter the way you describe the job. So much so that the last guy you see will be quoting for a different job to the first guy!

      Write up a good description of what you want doing and what materials you’d prefer (listen to each guys recommendations by all means…) and the outcomes you want. Be sure to state who is to do what, electrical works, decorating, cleaning up and disposal of rubbish etc.

      As for prices, getting 3 or 4 people to come and quote is a reasonable safeguard. Balance what each one says and go with any ‘gut’ feelings you have. It’s unlikely that the cheapest one will be the best but that goes for the most expensive one too…. Don’t be shy to ask for references etc.

      Plasterboard vs lath and plaster… hmm. I get this one a lot! The cost difference is considerable, usually. Plasterboards are cheap, quick to install and more importantly can be fitted well by just about anyone and his dog. Lath and plaster however scares the living daylights out of regular ‘common or garden’ tradesmen and this might mean looking for a ‘specialist’ and we all know what that does to the price.

      If you have pots of cash I’d always say go original, but honestly, in the loft you’re going to get a better job with boards and it’ll save you a small fortune. To be honest I can’t remember the last time I saw a ‘voluntarily’ lath and plaster job, it’s nearly always because they ‘have’ to in order to satisfy the local authorities.

      Good luck with the project and don’t forget to ask the local conservation officer for any recomendations (off the record of course) some will and some will say ‘it’s more than my jobs worth’ etc.), otherwise I recommend heading into your local builders merchant after 10:30am when it’s quiet and having a word with the guys in the back office or on the front desk if they look like they’ve been there awhile… They see these guys day in, day out and know who the good ones are the ones to run a mile from.
      Well, I hope that helped a tiny bit, don’t hesitate to get back to me if I can help.
      Best regards
      Ian

    1. Post
      Author
      1. Hello Ian,
        I could really use an opinion. We have a 145 year old house, on the main floor we removed a drop tile ceiling and were able to put up a new drywall ceiling as under the tile the whole ceiling had already been strapped.. Now i plan in about a week to try to work on the upstairs. However the two bed room ceiling suffer from what seems like a never ending stream of spider web cracking, with one or two spots where there had been water damage. My original plan of attack was to strap these ceilings and put drywall over top, my spouse thought we could probably just mud over top ( i have heard you can use a fiberglass ? window screen and mud that). My fear if we just try to mud is the cracks will come back. I do know that we will need to update the hydro at some point as it is nob and tube. When they did the main floor, they were able to just put the new light box ( wrong term im sure) so that it was between the strapping and new dry wall.

        I guess I’m looking to see if you know what our best ( do it yourself) option would be.

        Any words of wisdom would be helpful

        1. Post
          Author

          Hello Stephanie,
          I’m struggling a little with the terminology! Must be an American thing lol! (what do you mean by strapped? hydro? :-))
          Anyway, I think you need to go up and look at the ceiling (as per this article) and see if the plasterwork is coming loose from the lath. If it is, I agree that you’ll need to overboard with drywall. If the plasterwork is fairly sound however, maybe you can tighten it all up with mesh and mud (or even a thick lining paper….).
          I the end it comes down to the time you have and the money you want to spend etc…
          Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, middle of the holidays here 🙂
          Let me have more details if I can help,
          Ian

          1. Hello Ian,

            I was also a little confused with some of the terminology. Canadian vs American i guess. By strapped I mean taking thin wood planks and i guess leveling the ceiling, and/or providing you with something to anchor the drywall to. I have checked the ceiling and it doesnt seem to be coming detached from the lath at all. Its just got those tiny cracks. I like the idea of the mesh and mud. I will be doing it all myself so cheaper the better. Also should I wait to do anything until we have updated the electrical ( hydro) we have ceiling fixtures but the wiring is old and will need to be replaced. Not sure if I mesh and mud, whether the electrician can go above, or should I wait

            thanks for your assistance

          2. Post
            Author

            Hi Stephanie,
            Yes, I did assume strapped meant holding up the orig. ceiling with something (a good idea and great for hiding new wiring etc…..).
            Normally you would sort out any electrical work first before working on plasterworks as they often need to route cable/new boxes etc. and have been known to make a mess of plasterworks (*whistles innocently*)…
            It’s great news if you’re confident enough with mud to get a flat surface to decorate. I’ve seen many ceilings ‘tightened up’ this way, especially ones where the plasterwork is still solidly wrapped around the lath. The thin fibreglass mesh really helps hold it all together. Just make sure you get a good ‘key’ for the mud (no loose/greasy/shiny stuff that the mud won’t adhere to very well….).
            Let me know how you get on and send me any pics you take and I’ll include them here 🙂
            Thanks again for the update.
            Ian

  6. Does plaster and lath contain asbestos? Our 1915 house has had part of our plaster ceiling completely fall off. Part of the lath is exposed and the ceiling is sagging. We’re worried that we’ve been breathing in asbestos for the past three days over the weekend.

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Chey,
      You’re OK, (kind of!). Traditional lath and plasterworks didn’t involve asbestos but still, you don’t want to be breathing in the dust from your ceiling. Always use dust masks, preferably a proper respirator, when removing and clearing up old lath and plaster. We use the ones with the replaceable cartridges, not too expensive and pretty good at keeping the dust out.

      Sorry to hear about your ceiling, I hope you manage to get it replaced without too much hassle.
      Thanks for reaching out,
      Ian

  7. I have a house with a date stone “1804” and some years ago a cracked ceiling in the living room was covered in polystyrene tiles to improve the appearance and these have been painted over with white emulsion paint. These tiles are quite uneven and buckled and look pretty hideous now so I was planning to do something to improve it. Any suggestions?

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi David,
      I am afraid your options to improve polystyrene tiles are pretty much limited to removing them and dealing with the plaster underneath. Lets hope that the disheveled look of the tiles is due to failing adhesive rather than failing plasterworks underneath.

      I would choose the worse looking area of tiles and carefully remove a few tiles to get a good look at what is going on underneath, then you’re back to deciding how much work you want to do at this stage (take a look at this page for more info about repairing lath and plaster ceilings.
      Good luck and get back to me if you find something surprising under there.
      Best regards
      Ian

      1. Hi Ian. After reading your comments it has given me hope. We recently had our bedroom refurbished and we didn’t know that the ceiling was plaster and lather. The builder can in and redid the whole room after a few days cracks appeared all over. So we called him back… He said it’s an old ceiling and the only thing that would fix it is plasterboard ???? had he told us we should replace it we would have. Bit now we are getting faint cracks. I want to know whether we should replace it. My husband has been living in this house since he was a child overt 30 years and the ceiling never had problems. We have spotlights in the ceiling too now. So I’m just concerned. Should we replace. Or shall we keep. Thank you Ian. Builder has not been help full at all.

        1. Post
          Author

          Hi Noreen,
          It’s unusual to be able to fit spotlights in lath and plaster ceilings because drilling clean holes is VERY tricky. Plus the heat generated in non-LED type lamps are not a good idea in a bone dry, dusty, part wood ceiling! Especially now that hoods need to be fitted over such lamps ironically to satisfy fire regs. Maybe they cut out squares and fitted plasterboards first (common)?

          Re the cracks, are they new then or were they there before the builder painted? It’s true that stopping an old ceiling from showing hairline cracks is difficult. First you need to get up close and determine if the plaster has left the lath (re the article). If it has then a plasterboard option is probably going to be the cheapest option. But there are alternatives (read this page Ten ways to repair lath and plaster ceilings

          I am curious about the cause of the cracks if they are new though, is it possible the installation of the new lights caused some damage? L & P can be a little fragile and it doesn’t like being pulled about you see. The mortar doesn’t really stick to the lath, more wraps around it and the horse hair reinforcement holds it together.

          Let me know if I can help,
          Cheers
          Ian

          P.S. Ironically I am just putting the finishing touches to a short (ish!) ebook about living with lath and plaster (subscribe if you are interested in being notiied when it is released).

          1. Ian, firstly thank you very much for your quick response! Secondly, Im not sure what they have done to be honest. Initially I wanted recessed spotlights and the builder told me I cant have them otherwise I would need a new ceiling, but I can have normal spotlights – but he made sure I got IP65 led lights- i have 9 spotlights and 2 hanging lights!! Before they did the ceiling it had paper on it, which they stripped and then skimmed the ceiling and they also took out a pillar from a wall. So Im not sure how they have managed it. Im just annoyed because if they would have told me before then I could have replaced the whole thing with plaster board, which may have cost us a little more but at least the job would be finished. It doesnt seem like the ceiling will come down though. But Im not sure if the cracks will just come back/get worse, the builder has come back twice, once to fill in cracks and then paint the ceiling again. Those cracks are covered but now I see two new hairline cracks. Thank you! And yes sure sign me up!

          2. Post
            Author

            Hi Noreen,
            I think I see the problem. They skimmed the ceiling. But, I have to be honest in my early days we used to this as well, but age and experience has taught me better. It’s simple really, lime plasters are soft and can accommodate the houses movement easily (don’t forget the walls are built using lime mortar as well, plus the house probably doesn’t have concrete foundations either) BUT skimming plaster is designed for houses built using cement and plasterboard hence it’s very hard, which means yup, it’s not very flexible.

            The ‘golden’ rule is, cement for cement and lime for lime and never mix the two. Cement and modern plasters have no place in an old house basically, just as it would be daft to use lime products in a modern house.

            I just hope that the guys were not too rough with their scrapers taking the old wall paper off and putting the skimming on, like I said, old ceilings are really quire fragile (when interfered with), the old ‘keys’ are easily broken.

            OK, so what to do. Well, like you said what’s done is done. The faint cracking you see is probably just the skimming trying to accommodate the softer layer underneath. It’s difficult to say how bad the cracking will get (but skimming is pretty good, sticky stuff), using a thick lining paper might be a mid term plan.

            I think that you have to chalk this one up to experience and budget to batten/overboard the ceiling at the nex decorating session. At least then you can have exactly the lamps you want!

            Sorry I can’t deliver a ‘magic bullet’ Noreen,
            You have a nice weekend anyways!
            Ian

    1. Post
      Author

      Must admit it’s usually cheaper if they are already on site, versus calling him in to set up again for a small ceiling. Not many plasterers do like lath and plaster, usually because of bad memories from taking them down and all the mess! I do a lot of restoration work so I have learned to ‘love’ them!
      Let me know how you get on.
      Ian

  8. The plasterer mentioned in passing that he ‘would be more worried about that ceiling’ (we were discussing something else at the time).

    Didn’t give it much thought, but discovered one of his height extension boxes left in the room just now, under the crack, which is a bit of an indication that he is a bit worried by it. That got me searching on-line, and a more worried myself!

    I’ll have another chat to the plasterer tomorrow. I’m certain he’ll be able to do it whilst he’s here since we’ve already considered adding a hardboard wall to the list and he said he would be able to do that.

    I do however get the impression that the plasterer doesn’t like lath and plaster at all, and that his opinion would always be to plasterboard it as soon as possible.

    It is good to hear they rarely entirely come down! I’ll have another chat with the plasterer in the morning.

  9. Hi Ian,

    Thanks for a really interesting page. I hope you might be able to give me a little independent advise.

    Whilst getting some polystyrene tiles removed and replaced with plasterboard and plaster, we’ve discovered that our recently purchased (3 weeks!) 1900 house has lath and plaster ceilings. The plasterer is therefore, screwing the plasterboard into the joists over the lath and plaster.

    We were focussing on the rooms with polystyrene ceilings for this initial work, but with this new knowledge we are concerned about one of the rooms which has lining paper over lath and plaster. A crack (could almost be considered hairline) is running in a jagged line from about 2 foot from one corner, diagonally across the room, to about 1 foot from the opposite wall (about a metre from the diagonally opposite corner). The room is about 2.3mx3.6m. The crack is about 2 metres long.

    If I gently press around the crack, there is about 1mm movement. Is that what would be considered small? How worried should I be about this movement?

    We’re planning to fit plasterboard and plaster to all the ceilings when we’ve recovered from the initial hit of purchase and moving (in this house, the lath and plaster is so straight and smooth, it doesn’t add any more character than modern plaster). In the room with the crack, as a longer project we wanted to remove the fitted wardrobes, so with that in mind, we didn’t want to do the ceiling just yet.

    However if the ceiling is dangerous (and there will be people using it over Christmas) it could be an option to do it now, whilst the plasterer is here, and then whatever has to happen later when we get rid of the wardrobes.

    Do you think replacing this ceiling is urgent? Do you think it would remain safe for a while?

    Thanks

    L.

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Laura,
      Of course without seeing it it is difficult to say for sure, but in my experience ceilings are very rarely in danger of actually falling down. Even the really bad ones. If it was dangerous I am sure that parts of it would have started to peel away and fall down already. What does your plasterer think, since he is on site? 1mm of movement is normal, I would expect more than that if the plaster had fully left the lath, you would even see ‘bellies’ as it sags down.

      Get the opinion of the plasterer (he might say, may as well do it since he is there, depending on how short of work he is lol!) but since the crack goes across the room it’s likely a normal result of the whole house settling a touch rather than a specific failure of a part of the ceiling.

      Good luck with the project and hope you get it all ship shape for Christmas.
      Regards
      Ian

  10. I live in an old cob cottage. The first floor bedroom floor has rotten joists. The lath and plaster ceiling below is being held somehow by these. So far we have removed two joists and caused quite a bit of damage to the ceiling below. The new joists are being help to the ceiling by screws and screws with wire ‘woven’ through on the ceiling. There is some 6 to 10cm gap now between joist and ceiling. My builder say enough and to pull the ceiling down. It is so beautiful though. Do you please have any advice? With thanks.

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Anita,
      Sorry to hear that your old house is causing you trouble! If the ceiling is fixed to the bottom of the old joists, how are you removing the rotten ones without removing the ceiling? If from above, what is supporting the ceiling during the work? To be honest, saving a ceiling whilst replacing joists would only be carried out on ceilings with significant historical value. Under normal circumstances replacing joists would necessitate the removal of both the floorboards above and the ceiling below for sheer practicality of getting the old joists out and the new ones in.

      One thing I didn’t quite understand, where is the 6 to 10cm gap coming from? Are the new joists not as deep as the old ones (very unusual)?

      Regards the beautiful ceiling, well, yes I do understand. But don’t look at it as removing the character, but rather as an opportunity to breath new life into the room and ensure it’s long term survival. If funds allow, try to replace the ceiling like for like. The construction of a new lath and plaster ceiling, using lime mortar is a joy to watch and will give you another beautiful ceiling that will last many decades. Plus you’ll know that you did the very best job possible and not everyone gets to say that.

      Let me know how you get on and feel free to post pics if I can help.
      Thanks for stopping by and good luck, whatever you decide.
      Ian

  11. Question from Boston. We have an old house, 1920, that we purchased 3 years ago and slowly did improvements and repair. We are getting at the phase of replacing the ceilings in the dining & living room who evidently had cracks and the previous owner covered them with some wave design plastering, that is horrible, and now the crakes are resurfacing.
    I was thinking of completely remove the plaster and lath [and in the process run more up to date electrical] but i recently spoke with a contractor working in a total rehab of a nearby house of the same period, and he leaves the lath in place as much as possible as a base on which to drill the sheetrock.
    He says it is better so runs have a place to go and because creates a buffer between the joist and the sheetrock.
    What do you think? total removal or leave the old lath?

    thanks
    sandro

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Sandro,
      Well it is of course perfectly fine to leave the lath in place (if they are in good condition), but his argument for doing so doesn’t make much sense! You don’t need a ‘buffer’ between the joist and the sheetrock unless you are trying to match a level with another area and I frankly don’t understand “so runs have a place to go”? You’d pretty much have to remove at least some of the lath wherever the new cables are going… no?

      In truth the main reason to leave lath place is to save a few bucks and a little mess. But since the plaster is going to make a mess anyway most folks opt to take down the lath as well. The only notable exception to this (in the UK at least) is when there are fancy/large cornice/coving, oh what do you guys call it? Oh, yes, just remembered! Mouldings? then the lath is often left in place to avoid the risk of damaging the plasterwork around the mouldings.

      But his reasons apart, you’ll get a good job leaving the lath in place and an ever so slightly better one taking them down. It also depends on the quality of the lath (to get a flat ceiling after sheetrock), they are rarely left in the UK because we used split or riven lath, but I believe that you guys used sawn lath, which should be more uniform in size etc. Like I say, it sometimes saves a few bucks not having to rip out the lath and de-nail the joists and the laths do hold up some of the mess and any insulation etc sitting on top.

      I can’t quite tell if you are doing the work yourself or you have someone coming in? But removing the lath is up to you really, I’d nearly always take it down but it’s not worth ‘falling out over’ as we say!

      Hope that doesn’t muddy the water!
      Thanks for dropping in Sandro,
      Good luck with your project!
      Ian

  12. Hello ian I have a lath and plaster bedroom ceiling which is showing its age a few cracks and some sagging don’t really want to drop the whole ceiling do you think its possible to cover with reed matting and then lime plaster over this to keep the house as breathable as possible. Thanks for your time.
    Steve

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Steve,
      Interesting proposal but I suspect I don’t have the whole story! Mostly because finding someone who can install a reed and plaster ceiling is surely more difficult than removing the existing ceiling and starting over, no?

      Practically though, I’d have thought that installing reeds and plaster is more work than removing the damaged parts of the ceiling. If you do have access to someone happy to plaster using lime, rather than fix up reeds, I’d go for removing the old plaster and re-plastering (assuming the existing lath is sound and/or repairable). Then you’d have an authentic ceiling that will perform well in every sense.

      If you’re determined to go for the reed and plaster I’d still be tempted to remove the old sagging plaster to avoid it sitting on the top of the reeds over time.

      Thanks for stopping by Steve, let me know what you decide,
      Cheers
      Ian

  13. Hi Ian,

    This article is great. I am currently living in New York and am the proud owner of a Brooklyn brownstone built the 1880’s. We have a lath and plaster ceiling with detailed outer and inner mouldings and a medallion. In attempting to removing the artex (popcorn) finish that had been used to cover up cracks over the year my contractors have discovered a number of large cracks and holes so stopped the work. They say this is due to wear and tear and neglect. We have spoken to 3 pasterers, 2 say the its too far gone and needs to be replaced (which will mean loosing some of the mouldings unless pain stakingly recreated by hand) and 1 says the cieling can be repaired without taking it down. I guess this is a judgement call but would prefer not to take it down if possible. Would it be possible to email you a photograph to get your opinion? Thanks, Mark

    1. Post
      Author

      Of course Mark, be glad to have a look!
      I know that you can’t beat seeing it for real, in the context of the surrounding areas etc, but it can’t hurt to have a look.

      Wear and tear I guess I can just about live with but neglect; just how does one neglect ones ceilings? I doubt missing a few dusting sessions or even the odd re-decorate would be the cause of any problems!

      Simply put, houses move (all the time actually) and over long periods this leads plaster to break down etc and there is not much you can do about it in all honesty.

      Re the mouldings, it is usually possible to cut through the ceiling next to them and then board out the main ceilings upto the mouldings using a flexible decorators caulk at the join. I’ll try to find an old answer I gave to someone else about the same…

      You can send the pics to ian@handycrowd.com and I’ll see if I can help.
      Cheers
      Ian

  14. Hello, our house is around 100 years old, and in my bedroom I have a lath and plaster ceiling that has about half a dozen diagonal rather long cracks all going in the same direction. The cracks have been there since the house was bought around 17 years ago now, and seem to have changed little if at all. We had a leaky roof many years ago but that has been sorted and there is no sign of damp anywhere as far as I can tell. The house has signs of natural settlement, and I’m just wondering what you think the chances are of the ceiling falling down if the cracks have been there so long but haven’t changed? I’m probably getting the ceiling checked out within the next 6 months, but I’m starting to get worried about sleeping in here in case I get some plaster falling on my head!

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Sarah,
      Well, if you’ve been there 17 years and seen little change I think you are safe! Plaster usually only actually falls down on the very worst ceilings or when they get overloaded by live water leaks or sometimes after folks go banging around in the loft etc.

      You can try going up on a step ladder and following this guide… But go really gently, fingertips really. Watch the cracks carefully as you gently push up on the plasterwork. Minimal movement and a little dust is OK, but if the plaster has separated from the lath you’ll see more movement and significant dust from the cracks. Separated plaster is not good. Not saying that it will definitely fall down, but it’s the first stage if you like.

      Good luck with your inspection and thanks for ‘calling in’.
      Stay well
      Ian

  15. Hi. Thanks for the info. We’ve had to do some replastering of sections of our victorian ceiling before, but this time, I’m here for a relatively small repair, but it’s in a strange place: it’s on a stairway where the upstairs wall meets the downstairs hallway ceiling. Right about where you’d bump your head going down the stairs, the ceiling plaster has separated, but only by 1/16 or 1/8th of an inch, leaving a 3 foot horizontal crack the width of the stairway. I’m not worried about it falling down, but it’s an unsightly flaw that I’d like to fix. My first thought was to squeeze some wood glue or something in the crack and use a long stick to squeeze it together. Or is there a more ‘professional’ way to do this? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

    1. Post
      Author

      Hey Paul,
      Sticking it should work well, but I would use a flexible adhesive / caulk instead of wood glue which is relatively inflexible. Try screwfix…. http://www.screwfix.com/.

      There are a few paintable caulks that act as an adhesive around, so just go with what your local store has in stock. Just make sure that its: flexible, paintable and is ‘sticky’! Cost is usually indicative of quality when it comes to sealants, although some of the ‘home’ brands are getting pretty good these days, even if they do have silly names sometimes……

      Go gently when you’re propping it up, oh and vacuum the crack out before filling it. That’s it I think!
      Thanks for stopping by.
      Ian

  16. Hi Ian,

    My husband and I have just bought a 1917 house with lath and plaster ceilings. We are both useless at DIY and have no experience with owning an older property so would really appreciate your advice! We have builders in at the moment sorting out the damp, taking down a wall and rewiring the whole house. The previous owner at some point over the last 40 years has taken down a different wall on the left side of the house and replaced the lath and plaster on that side only with boards. We cannot decide what to do with the right hand side or the upstairs ceilings. Would taking the wall down affect the lath and plaster? Are we silly not to take the ceilings down whilst we are having so much work done? One of the ceilings upstairs is sagging a bit and the landing ceiling has quite a few cracks. The builder says to just leave the lath and plaster up there and board over the top of all the ceilings and skim over but my father in law says they need to come out. We would be grateful of your advice!

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi Tracy,
      It’s a dilemma isn’t it, especially if your builder shows little inclination to take them down!

      But. There are pro’s and cons to taking the old stuff down….

      Pros. There is no doubt that taking out rotten old stuff makes a better job over the long term, less potential for the weight of the old plaster sitting on top of the new boards to cause cracking etc and boards screwed directly into the joists are obviously tighter, stronger and possibly even flatter.
      Cons are that it might cost a little more and there is definitely more mess to clean up which also costs.

      If the house is a building site right now anyways, I consider it’s a perfect opportunity to take them out, plus it makes running new cable for new lights easy etc.

      Or as a half way measure, what’s the ceiling height like? On my list (lath and plaster, opt.7) I talk about screwing up some thin battens (say 47x22mm or even 47x19mm at a push), underneath the existing joists. This sandwiches the old plasterwork up securely and gives a good surface to screw your new plasterboards to, plus it still gives you good cable runs. Some people even opt for 47x25mm and pop in a little extra insulation/vapour barrier etc.

      Sorry, too many options! In part it does depend on how much you want to spend and of course you have to work with your builder, even if it is your house. “If in doubt, take them out” has always seen folks in good stead though…….

      Thanks for reaching out, I know it is a lot to take on with an old house, especially the first time, but feel free to keep me informed, if I can help I will!
      Best regards
      Ian

  17. I have regular drywall ceilings, when I push on them they make cracking sound. I have no cracks. Is there a problem with my ceilings? I also hear a lot of cracking and popping sounds from time to time, like settling cracking . I have a townhouse that is about 30 years old. Who do I get to inspect my ceilings.

    1. Post
      Author

      Hi linda,
      Well, 30 years ago plasterboards were nailed up instead of the drywall screws that we use today, and also it sounds terrible but lots of houses built around then were lightly built, which means they do move around little. Nails didn’t pull the boards up as tight as the screws do, which is why there are less creaking problems today.

      But to be honest, if you don’t have any cracking in the plasterworks, it’s unlikely that there is a problem. I had a house built in 1981 that made the most horrendous noises when you walked around upstairs, even after I put three boxes of extra screws into the chipboard in a misguided attempt to quieten the floor! I think that the floor joists were a little too small for the size of the house and flexed a lot. Contractors working down to a spec huh!

      The cracking you can hear is probably just the materials moving up and down on the nails/screws/etc. as the floors flex or the house settles down for the night. Have you asked the neighbours if their houses are the same?
      Hope that sets your mind at rest a little!
      Thanks for stopping by Linda,
      Stay well
      Ian

      1. Hello Ian, I am getting our ceiling in living room re-done as the whole lot needs replacing, its being battened then plastered on top of the old plaster; can you let me know of the health and safety issues please.

        1. Post
          Author

          Hi Jackie,
          Well, since you are leaving the old lath and plaster in place there won’t be any major health issues. There will still be a small amount of old dust made as the new battens/plasterboards are fixed in place and of course the usual mess from the new plaster. So, as far as I can see the only concern will be dust for anyone who is sensitive to such things.
          Hope that helps,
          Regards
          Ian

  18. Thanks! This was really helpful. We’ve just had a section of plaster fall away in one of our downstairs rooms and wasn’t sure what the right ‘repair’ should be—think the whole ceiling needs to come down.

    1. Post
      Author

      You’re most welcome David, glad it helped. It is difficult to assess the condition isn’t it? Sometimes a part falls away and the rest of the ceiling isn’t too bad, but usually it’s a sign that more extensive work is needed to make a lasting repair.
      Good luck with the work!
      Regards
      Ian

      1. My lathe and plaster ceiling seems fine. However, I am refurbishing the whole house including rewiring and re-plumbing and putting in new lighting. My guess (but I am no expert and happy to be corrected on this point) is that this is likely to require extensive access into the ceiling areas and therefore cutting through it. So I may as well replace all the ceilings. What do you think?

        1. Post
          Author

          Hi Jay,
          Well, services are normally accessed from underneath the floor boards as this is better in the long term for later alterations and future maintenance if something goes wrong. Services are only run in from underneath if the ceiling are coming down anyway.

          So, you shouldn’t take down the ceilings just to sort out the services!

          Most older houses have several ‘runs’, you’ll recognise these as floorboards that have obviously been up before, sometimes many times! This is where you’ll find pipes and cables.

          Re the lighting though, it’s unusual to try and fit recessed downlights in a lath and plaster ceiling, so you might need to replace them with plasterboard if this is your intention.
          Hope that helps, thanks for dropping in and good luck fixing up your place,
          Regards
          Ian

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